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DiGiKerot



Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 305

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jehuty wrote:
I wish some companies would learn to hire a QC to check their subtitles. Bandai also has a weird habit of putting in dubtitled.. why would ppl who are watching the dubs need DUBTITLE!! It really pissed me off when Im watching the original Japanese audio and its not subtitled properly(and I spend $200 on it >.<), but it was dubtitled instead. Wth were they thinking...


Bandai very rarely actually use dubtitles. When they do, its actually because the Japanese licenser have given them those subtitles and demanded that they use them, without any changes. Thats certainly whats happened with things like Zeta Gundam. Bandai seems to have a habit of licensing more of the shows the Japanese tend to go all control-freak over, unfortuneatly.
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Jehuty



Joined: 12 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Id chalk it up to the English production staff for honestly believing that this is what fans wanted though -_-
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TokenAsian
Most Likely to Spend Too Much


Joined: 15 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jehuty wrote:
Id chalk it up to the English production staff for honestly believing that this is what fans wanted though -_-


Right... Wink

Have these companies ever considered polling their major audience (people like us) about what they wanted? Or are they just too stubborn about their "marketing techniques" that they won't?

It's a sad day when I own the DVDs and wish I hadn't deleted the fansubs...
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Tensai



Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 49
Location: California

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they asked me... this would be my suggestion.

Release subtitled (not dubbed) versions of the shows simultaneously with the R2 releases. It would cost very little in terms of money for the original company to do this, or they can offer it at a discount to US companies to produce subbed version only. I think they should hire some of the better fan-sub teams to do this. That way those of us who don't care about dubs, will have access to the stuff when we want it.

Then, they will also have market data on what series are the most popular, and know that these would likely do well in dubbed form. Then additional licensing can be worked out for the dubbed versions.

I can't see this as being anything but a win/win.

-Tensai
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Satoshi



Joined: 13 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They already do this..they're called HK DVDs.

*ducks*

Okay, okay, in all seriousness, I see your point. And while I would call it a Good Thing(TM) it makes the situation rather murky (at least for the fans). To wit:

- My point above was in jest but it does have an impact. The difference between a HK bootleg and an R1sub (as I'll call them) are much less than between an HK bootleg and an R1 dual-language, propped-up by marketing disc.

- DVD releases follow behind on-air episodes by a few months or so. If an DVD comes out for a show, does that mean it's 'licensed'? (technically, yes, right?) But..announcements of licensure would precede the actual release, possibly at the outset of the season (and if it became widespread, it'd be 'assumed' that a show would be licensed for R1sub).
Should fansub groups be able to distribute them until the DVD comes out? Or until an R1sub announcement? Or not at all? Does the fansub group contracted for the work (assuming this happens) get preferrential treatment? How many viewers will cry foul and just download it off IRC/BT anyway?

- How are Japanese production companies going to ensure QC on these R1subs? Right now they deal with a limited number of (established) NA distributors. But there are dozens (if not hundreds) of fansub groups out there. I'm reasonably familiar with a number of them, as are you folks, but how are the folks in Nihon going to know? Fansub groups build up 'street cred' which is largely uncontested at this point but when money gets involved I wouldn't be surprised to see a few 'renegade' groups pose as another group to get a chance at a juicy contract.

- On the other hand, if you try to go with established companies to do the subtitling (like whoever does Geneon's, or whatever), then you run into Marketing. They're not going to want to push too many titles that they don't think will sell well. The Japanese production companies are selling their product because they're *paying* to make it, but NA companies have a different set of checks and balances - why cough up the cash for titles they don't think will do well? Sure, there's a lower barrier to entry than there are for full R1 DVD releases, but still a barrier. (And that'll really be a problem for anyone, since *someone* has to cough up the cash for distribution, unless they find a way around it *cough*BT*cough*)

- Tensai mentioned "That way those of us who don't care about dubs, will have access to the stuff when we want it." But there's going to be the traditional delay before a DVD release - even an R1sub. How many people will stop downloading the show as it comes out, to wait a few months for the DVD? And for those who download fansubs *anyway*, only warm fuzzies will get them to buy an R1sub.

Hmm...try as I might, I can't get a clear ecosystem in my head. I guess there are a couple possibilities:

Future A Timeline:
- Show X airs on TV in Japan
- Fansub Group A subs it, available on BT.
- Time passes (or not)
- Fansub group A, or Big Company B, announces they'll be releasing an R1sub of show X
- Time passes
- R2 DVD comes out in Japan.
- Simultaneously, R1sub of show X comes out in N.A. Group A and/or B urges fans to buy it.
- Fansub of show X halts circulation (ideally)
- More Time passes
- Full R1 release comes out in N.A. ... or not.
- etc. as before.

Future B Timeline:
- Show X airs on TV in Japan
- New Fansub Ethic (TM) says that no one is supposed to fansub the show. Everyone should wait for the R1sub.
- ...except those of us that watch raws. (that's another story, I'm guessing..). New Fansub Ethic probably doesn't say anything about this.
- Former Fansub Group A, or Big Company B, announces they'll be releasing an R1sub of show X
- Time passes
- R2 DVD comes out in Japan.
- Simultaneously, R1sub of show X comes out in N.A. Group A and/or B urges fans to buy it.
- More Time passes
- Full R1 release comes out in N.A. ... or not.
- etc. as before.

Now, I don't want to sound down on Tensai - I think it'd be real cool for something like this to happen. But it means disturbing the entrenched ecosystem - for producers, distributors, fansubbers, and viewers. There's a large amount of momentum, and it'll take a lot of effort to dislodge it.

Not that it's impossible. Some fansub group with a rich member (Tomoyo-chan) could offer to pay a production company $10,000 an episode or whatever, for R1sub rights to some upcoming series. It would be *very* interesting to see how such a tactic would pay out.

I don't have $10,000 an episode for an OVA, let alone an actual series. So it isn't going to be me (unless I get super-rich real quick. Then I'm getting the R1sub rights for Futago Hime and hiring Matthew. :p)



By the way, TokenAsian mentioned about polling the customers (i.e. us). It *does* happen, but not on as large a scale as many of us would like. At the anime club I used to belong to (OSAMU), Bandai offered free previews of subtittled anime they were thinking of releasing, in exchange for filling out surveys about the shows (I believe it was for titles they'd licensed and were considering on what scale to market/distribute it...). The first one was G-Gundam. (Not really a Gundam fan myself but that show sucked. Its high point was that it sucked so bad it was funny.) I left the club around that time as they'd switched to showcasing pretty much only R1 releases, which I could get by walking down to the nearby hobby store that rented anime DVDs.

Lesson learned for that is that if you're part of an anime club you can consider doing the same thing - approach a couple distributors and let them know you're willing to provide feedback on their releases. Some might shoot you down (*cough*ADV*cough*) but others might be more forthcoming.
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DiGiKerot



Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 305

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jehuty wrote:
Id chalk it up to the English production staff for honestly believing that this is what fans wanted though -_-


In the case of a lot of the odd Bandai stuff, it genuinely is the Japanese staff for a show who ends up messing up the show. Really, the English production staff care because they know something like what happened with the Zeta Gundam DVD box is incredibly bad PR (Given that it was an uber-fan orientated release, I don't for a second think they'd be stupid enough to use dubtitles, particularly when they'd have needed to produce a proper script to base the dub off in the first place!). I've seen enough Bandai disks to know that the generally do fantastic work, but when dealing with things like Gundam you will get Bandai Japan breathing down your neck. Look at First Gundam were they weren't even allowed to release it subtitled, and were told to cut out an episode! I think it was Candidate for Goddess where Bandai were originally told by the licensor that the release didn't even need subtitles (just a dub and raw Japanese), and it was only have lots of arguing that they were allowed to have subtitles if, and only if, they were exactly the same as the dub script.

You just need to look at the stuff Toei have started releasing in the US (dubtitles, no chapter stops, etc, etc) to realise that no-one screws up an anime release like the Japanese!
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DiGiKerot



Joined: 15 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tensai wrote:
I can't see this as being anything but a win/win.


In regards to subbing the R2 release Gonzo did it with Saikano, and King Records/Gainax did it with FLCL, but obviously the difference in sales weren't good enough for them to do it again.

As for offering it to a US studio for cheap subtitle-only, Its not good for the Japanese producers when they find that R2 sales go down due to the Japanese importing the US release for a quarter of the price of the US one.

Theres also the fact that the R2 studios are increasingly relying of overseas licensors money to actually pay for the shows they are producing. I mean, you simply wouldn't have seen Kaleidostar without the money ADV put into its production (kind of amusing given all the debate over the current non-release of the second series). The Japanese want to sell it overseas, and they want to sell it for prices relating to how well its doing in Japan, which is why we are unlikely to see releases of shows like Air or Kiminozo anytime soon - they are huge in Japan, hence command insane licensing costs, but are niche at best in the US.

I actually think ADV do decent DVDs as well, and think their extraless releases are a pretty good idea (no extras = fewer disks = cheap as hell! All of Angelic Layer for $50? Yes please!). They've had a lot of bad PR for other issues lately, but I do appriecate the fact that they got both the Sky BLue and Peach edition extras for DNAngel, the fact they release quite a bit of stuff I like which other labels wouldn't touch with a bargepoll, and the fact that they are probably the most pro-active when it comes to actually producing extras for shows where none exist.
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DiGiKerot



Joined: 15 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maestro4k wrote:
I've seen some of the recent Geneon ones and they are definitely improving. I think they did the Onegai Twins! release and there's 2-5 image songs on each volume under extras. That's really cool. Smile


It was Bandai who release OneTea and OneTwi, actually. The one thing which annoys me about some Bandai releases is when they have two sets of subtitles on the OP (the romanji ones and the translations) - the OP for Galaxy Angels is far too crowded thanks to it having four lines of text at times. Bizzarely them doing this is kind of inconsistant though - the Scrapped Princess DVDs, for example, switches between translated and romanji subtitles from episode to episode like most companies.

The problem with on disk extras (material ones are a different matter) is that more often than not the Japanese releases don't have them, and if they don't than the US releases are unlikely to have anything from the Japanese side of things. Thats why we are seeing so many R1 specific extras on R1 release, since the people who buy the disks actually want them. Of course, whilst people want extras on R1 releases, we will never get releases as nice as the R2 ones in terms of video, simply because they tend to have a whole DVD to do two or three episodes with nothing else on the disk. You can afford insane bitrates that way.

I like Geneons releases because they tend of have nice material extras if you buy them early. I like my pencil boards.

Maybe I'm just easy to please - I remember paying $30+ each of Evangelion on VHS, dub only at two episodes a cassette, and being happy about it Rolling Eyes
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DiGiKerot



Joined: 15 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

moyism wrote:

*waiting two more weeks before AIR 5 and Mai-HiME 6 arrives*


Speaking of which... (and actually getting back on topic!).

The Mai figure is merely alright. It comes into pieces, and the clothes come off (The Vol 9 first pressing is an alternate set of clothing for the Mai, Natsuki and Mikoto figures shipping with 6/7/Cool.

I'd been thinking about getting the R2 Air releases, but there was a lot of talk about fairly crappy video quality on AoD so I decided against it. I should be getting both the Special and Collectors editions of the movie release, though.

I actually have a package to pick up from the Post Office tomorrow (bloody UK customs charges...), which should be either a box of SD Gundam SEED Destiny figures, or two volumes of Hajime no Ippo/Fighting Spirit. If its the former, I'll be back tomorrow Smile
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moyism
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Joined: 11 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*shakes fist of jealousy*

On the Air DVDs, definitely a buy only if you're a "hardcore" fan I guess? AoD forums pretty much nails most of the issues with the DVD quality. Sometimes bad that I can even notice on my crappy TV, LOL (however few and far those times are). But is it stopping me from buying? nope. Quality is still 10x better than the fansubs out, so I'm not complaining.

Hah, another person putting down the cash to by both version of the Air movie! Now I don't feel *as* bad... Cool
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Maestro4k
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moyism wrote:
o you know whose DVDs I can't stand?

Disney.

Friggin ads, long menu animations, lame interviews with the English voice cast, and subtitles in a yellow color that blends in.

Scarily enough they're much, much better than they used to be. Originally all Disney DVDs forced you to watch all the previews before you could get to the menu or movie. You couldn't jump with the menu key, couldn't fast forward, couldn't do next track, nothing. It was the most annoying thing I've ever seen. Disney apparently got a lot of complaints because after their first year of this they stopped and nowadays there's a title screen before the previews telling you that you can hit menu to skip them. Smile

Jehuty wrote:
I wish some companies would learn to hire a QC to check their subtitles. Bandai also has a weird habit of putting in dubtitled.. why would ppl who are watching the dubs need DUBTITLE!!

To be fair there is a use for dubtitles and that's for closed captioning. That's no excuse for not having a proper subtitle track as well though!

Tensai wrote:
I also wish they would figure out that subtitles don't need to take up 10% of the screen. It really pulls you out of the show more often than not. I really love unobtrusive subs.

This is an area that's tough to satisfy people with. I prefer subtitles that are a bit larger, or at least not in a super skinny font that's hard to read from anywhere further back than 1 foot from the TV. I don't like them covering the whole screen either though.

Satoshi wrote:
Now, I don't want to sound down on Tensai - I think it'd be real cool for something like this to happen. But it means disturbing the entrenched ecosystem - for producers, distributors, fansubbers, and viewers. There's a large amount of momentum, and it'll take a lot of effort to dislodge it.

It's an effort worth taking though, and if done right it'll be enormously succesful for everyone involved. Acutually there's other ways to go about this than you suggest, but I haven't worked out all the details yet. This is something I would like to try and do in the future. Of course I'm not rich either so I need to have all the details worked out and a business plan in place before I try to find funding. Shocked

DiGiKerot wrote:
In the case of a lot of the odd Bandai stuff, it genuinely is the Japanese staff for a show who ends up messing up the show.

I don't remember if it's a Bandai title or not but I know the reason the OVAs and movie of Rurouni Kenshin are titled Samurai X is because the Japanese owner insisted that had to be the English title. Totally moronic really, one of the worst titles I've ever seen given to a show. Razz

DiGiKerot wrote:
I actually think ADV do decent DVDs as well, and think their extraless releases are a pretty good idea (no extras = fewer disks = cheap as hell! All of Angelic Layer for $50? Yes please!). They've had a lot of bad PR for other issues lately, but I do appriecate the fact that they got both the Sky BLue and Peach edition extras for DNAngel, the fact they release quite a bit of stuff I like which other labels wouldn't touch with a bargepoll, and the fact that they are probably the most pro-active when it comes to actually producing extras for shows where none exist.

Actually sticking all the extras on one disc wouldn't add considerably to the cost. In fact it'd cost less to release a box set if they kept the original discs intact. That way the authoring costs were paid for long ago, and they just have to design new packaging and ship the suckers.

ADV may be proactive at producing extras where none exist but they're decidedly inactive in many other areas. They continue to treat fans like dirt, ignore their requests, whine about fansubbing being the apocalypse year after year, hold titles hostage (the thing with Kaliedo Star isn't the first time they've done this), etc. If they really want to be in fans graces listening a little and stopping holding titles hostage would be good places to start.

Personally I think ADV licenses more than it can realistically handle. They sink so much money into licensing series and helping produce others that they get desperate to make a fortune off of every single release.

DiGiKerot wrote:
The problem with on disk extras (material ones are a different matter) is that more often than not the Japanese releases don't have them, and if they don't than the US releases are unlikely to have anything from the Japanese side of things. Thats why we are seeing so many R1 specific extras on R1 release, since the people who buy the disks actually want them.

Notice we didn't say we disliked English only extras in general, just that we disliked them displacing Japanese extras. If there aren't any Japanese extras to put on the DVDs, then I really could care less if they interview every English cast member. I do get ticked when they put on interviews with the entire English cast and leave out Japanese extras to do so.

DiGiKerot wrote:
Of course, whilst people want extras on R1 releases, we will never get releases as nice as the R2 ones in terms of video, simply because they tend to have a whole DVD to do two or three episodes with nothing else on the disk. You can afford insane bitrates that way.

This is an issue that's been discussed before, but you can do high bitrates with higher episode counts if you're willing to use a DVD9. Alternatively you can stick to a DVD5 but really work on the encode so it looks fantastic even though the overall bitrate is lower. I've seen examples of both in R1 releases, so it's certainly doable.

While tuning the encode likely cost a lot more, I can't see that authoring a DVD9 vs. a DVD5 is going to be a huge amount more. The main costs with authoring are in encoding and menus. Toss in a DVD9 and you just have to be careful where the layer change occurs.

DiGiKerot wrote:
Maybe I'm just easy to please - I remember paying $30+ each of Evangelion on VHS, dub only at two episodes a cassette, and being happy about it Rolling Eyes

I remember those days and I was never happy about it. As I recall Viz was one of the worst (most companies had 3 or 4 episodes a tape) and I thought they were Greedy Bastards (tm). I remember the huge flamewars that broke out on Usenet when Viz was refusing to continue to release Maison Ikkoku in any form as well. (Although I personally don't like the show, I remember this happening.) I noticed that it's being released on DVD now, I think it's sub-only. Ironically that's what the whole flamewar was about. Fans of the show wanted a release, even if it was sub-only. They weren't insistant on it being dubbed (which costs more), they just wanted the damn show. They were even willing to pay up front for preorders but Viz ignored that too.

I never did get into Evangelion (until this year actually) so I never noticed it's episode count.
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DiGiKerot



Joined: 15 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maestro4k wrote:

DiGiKerot wrote:
In the case of a lot of the odd Bandai stuff, it genuinely is the Japanese staff for a show who ends up messing up the show.

I don't remember if it's a Bandai title or not but I know the reason the OVAs and movie of Rurouni Kenshin are titled Samurai X is because the Japanese owner insisted that had to be the English title. Totally moronic really, one of the worst titles I've ever seen given to a show. Razz


That was ADV. Sony told them they either had to release it as Samurai X or Rurouni Kenshin. They decided to go for Samurai X rather than a Japanese title the kind of audience they were aiming at wouldn't be able to pronouce. Media Blasters, on the other hand, took the other option.

(edit - Oh, I just thought I should probably point out that ADV at least listened to fans who said that Samurai X was a dumb title, and (for the original release I bought at least) gave us dual sided covers with the shows Japanese logo (with a romanised version underneath) on the reverse so we didn't have to display that stupid title on our shelves).

Geneon had the same issue with Aoi Yori Aoshi - it was either AYA or (and I think this is the exact wording) "More Blue than Indigo Blue". I know thats literal, but they weren't willing to give a word on it (so "Bluer than Indigo" was a no-go). Pretty stupid, really.

Maestro4k wrote:
DiGiKerot wrote:
I actually think ADV do decent DVDs as well, and think their extraless releases are a pretty good idea (no extras = fewer disks = cheap as hell! All of Angelic Layer for $50? Yes please!). They've had a lot of bad PR for other issues lately, but I do appriecate the fact that they got both the Sky BLue and Peach edition extras for DNAngel, the fact they release quite a bit of stuff I like which other labels wouldn't touch with a bargepoll, and the fact that they are probably the most pro-active when it comes to actually producing extras for shows where none exist.

Actually sticking all the extras on one disc wouldn't add considerably to the cost. In fact it'd cost less to release a box set if they kept the original discs intact. That way the authoring costs were paid for long ago, and they just have to design new packaging and ship the suckers.


If you've already encoded all the video to a decent quality, then its no effort all to throw together a crappy menu and stick the original video files onto the a disk in a different order assuming you don't have to start resizing things. The fact that you need to press a disk or two less for every set is probably a considerable saving over a long run of disks.

As someone who doesn't tend to watch extras anyway, I appriecate the fact that I can pick up a few of the shows that have slipped under my radar (I generally buy the singles of anything I want anyway) for less than they were selling sets for previously. For those who do like the extras, I can see why its annoying to have the mid-priced options taken away, but with the increasing number of US TV releases coming in cheaper than anime sets then I can see why they want to get prices down to similar levels for boxed releases - I can see a lot of people plumping for boxsets of Futurama/Family Guy/The Simpsons as opposed to anime disks at current prices.

Maestro4k wrote:
ADV may be proactive at producing extras where none exist but they're decidedly inactive in many other areas. They continue to treat fans like dirt, ignore their requests, whine about fansubbing being the apocalypse year after year, hold titles hostage (the thing with Kaliedo Star isn't the first time they've done this), etc. If they really want to be in fans graces listening a little and stopping holding titles hostage would be good places to start.


Whining aside (it is getting annoying), I wouldn't be surprised if the Kaleido Star thing was a bad case of chinese whispers (a lot of ADV news often is - I've had no problem at all getting newer volumes of Yucie even after all the doomsaying about people saying ADV had said it was going to be online only). I would be very surprised if Kaleido Star 2 didn't get a release, thinpack sales or not, just not until after they finish releasing DNAngel.

Gals, on the other hand, is unfortunatly completely screwed. Its a shame as I like the series, but you really can't expect them to drop money licensing something which simply doesn't sell.

The Tutu situation is very unfortunate, though.

I'm not really sure I think ADV treat fans like dirt or ignore them (I can't say I saw Geneon reps so much as commenting on the video issues with Girls BRAVO, ADV at least aknowledged the complaints with Fumoffu), but thats really a matter of perception based on previous run-ins with them, and thats an argument which simply wouldn't go anywhere so we should probably just leave it there. I'll just say that no matter what you think of them as a company, their actual DVD output is generally above average, its just very rare they do something either exceptionally good or awful. I just think they tend to be a lot more vocal and honest about everything, and that more often that not comes across as whining and incredibly annoying to fans.

I don't think they are the best of the US labels by any means (they do release a lot of crap), but they certainly aren't the worst.

Maestro4k wrote:
Personally I think ADV licenses more than it can realistically handle. They sink so much money into licensing series and helping produce others that they get desperate to make a fortune off of every single release.


That I don't disagree with in the slightest. Smile I think they realise this as well, and is why they've made so few licensing announcements this year.
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Random Otaku



Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 147
Location: Israel

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*feels out of place*

Gundam Seed Vol.1 w/e Box + Vol.2
Ghost in The Shell : Stand Alone Complex Vol.6

I was going to start Seed anyway, and Amazon had a nice package deal. Just one more month to the spiffy GITS:SAV Vol.7 SE. *drools*
Gha, I need to take more shifts at work for some more spending money.

Oh, and thank you for making a R1 person feel unique. XD
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DiGiKerot



Joined: 15 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Random Otaku wrote:
*feels out of place*

Gundam Seed Vol.1 w/e Box + Vol.2
Ghost in The Shell : Stand Alone Complex Vol.6

I was going to start Seed anyway, and Amazon had a nice package deal. Just one more month to the spiffy GITS:SAV Vol.7 SE. *drools*
Gha, I need to take more shifts at work for some more spending money.

Oh, and thank you for making a R1 person feel unique. XD


I'm looking forward to that GITS:SAC 7 SE - its a fantastic show, but its the T-shirt I think is particularly awesome.

Kind of wish I'd bought the SEED 1 boxed version rather than the regular, but I really wasn't sure if I was going to like it at the time. I'd remembered having seen the first episode previously, but the only thing I could remember about it was laughing at how ludicrously oversized Kiras shirt collar was. Of course, I promptly because addicted to the damn show (and Gundam in general these days) and really want the OST disk. Think I'm just going to have to order all the SEED OSTs from Japan (well, aside from SEED Destiny ones, I've been buying those as they are released).
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Jehuty



Joined: 12 Jun 2005
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Y don't u just buy the SEED ~Complete BEST~ (I think that's the name) w/ all the singles (although, See-Saw had the best one~).
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